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Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

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spectator100
Joined on 07 gen 2009
Total posts: 32

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

martedì 30 giugno 2009 18.27

pink unicorn having read all my past posts you  will know that we often held similar opinions. Since I do not consider that we are in a contest I am not sure about your "win" words.

I do think I am due an apology by your completely false claim that I "slated" and called the Russians "poor dancers". Nowhere will you find those words in fact you will read "convincing winners".  As I wrote my words on quality I was aware that (exactly as a young English couple). the Russians had been finalists at Junior Blackpool in the 12/13 age category.

I am sorry but you have suggested that "international competitors" are of a higher standad than English competitors and that your couple are badly marked in England by incompetent or corrupt judges. This is based only on  few results achieved abroad. and without any other English dancers competing.  Others have even been upset by your claims and English dancesport has been damaged. Simply because someone is an "international competitor" does not make them better than all English dancers. I do feel you owe English competitors and judges an apology. 

smd I am sure many young dancers would love to go abroad but time and financial restraints will not allow.

 

 
webminder
Joined on 13 nov 2008
Total posts: 46

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

mercoledì 1 luglio 2009 14.39

The questioned bul #@!    has invaded dancesport way too far to waste time demanding personal apologies, whilst mentioning personal observations makes the thread more intimate, thanks to people like pink unicorn , Gabriela .

Is it possible other EDTA  members would have done well in International dancesport events. Possibly.    Is it possible the mentioned talented and hard working couple, supported by his parents and teachers deserved 1st and the 6th in the same heat -  well....can you be sure the judging was not affected by the ambiguity, bias and unfairness ?  How can anyone be sure.

However it is a fact that dancers do study the results, recognize and know about unfair markings ( sure , many think they are better than they actually are,  but that does not negate the presence of the bul #@! )   and the majority puts up with it  under various excuses:

Excuses

1.  We cannot make a change lets live with it 

2. If you cannot fight them, join them

3. The skating system is the best we can have, lets embrace it and turn the blind side to the #@!

4. lets enjoy the dance,  never mind the results.

5. After many competition it will all even out. shut up, pay your dues, live with it

Pink unicorn has shown a good attitude, better sportsmanship and I applaud to him, however, just because we can live with unfairness does not mean there should be no attempt to improve  / remedy the situation.  Not in a personal and a vindictive way,  but introducing  strict quality standards  and adhering to them.

Judges must be accountable for the job they are paid to do.  Where is the quality control over their work ?  

Pink Unicorn apologize to no one, you are just describing a situation, you insulted no one, you are entitled to your opinion.  I am sure spectator100 and sms have not such a thin skin , if they can see and live with all the bull#@! and sleep well.
clarkson2stuart
Joined on 24 mag 2009
Total posts: 9

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

mercoledì 1 luglio 2009 17.20

Pink Unicorn and Spectator. Neither of you need apologise on this forum - it is ridiculous to suggest you do. It's about expressing your opinions. There is no doubt that [moderated by Admin at the request of involved parties]have done very well in International competitions and are proud of their achievements. There is absolutely no need to question this as it does nothing but cause bad feeling between yourself and the couple (and family) in question. Spectator if your opinion is that they have not done much better by mearly competing against different couples or maybe a lower level than the British EADA competitors then that is your own personal opinion.

PinkUnicorn is going to of couse be biast as it is his own daughter (and partner) he is talking about. Unfortunately Spectator100 i would suggest your comments are a little unfair and hurtful to 2 proud teens and perhaps better kept to yourself as it helps nobody, and offers no suggestion to what we can do, what is the point of saying potentialy hurtful things?

It's uncalled for and goes against the spirit of good old friendly discussion among dancers and dancefans.
spectator100
Joined on 07 gen 2009
Total posts: 32

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

giovedì 2 luglio 2009 16.35

clarkson2stuart I m a little puzzled  by your words. On the one hand you say it is about expressing opinions and on the other you criticise me for producing fact.  Surely if a parent chooses to come to an international and widely read public forum they invite their words to be studied?  I absolutely agree it is important to be fair. Fair to all the other EADA competitors and the Adjudicators.

Please read these words

My daughter and partner do enjoy competing abroad because we feel that the dancing is been judged on the day, and not judged for who you are or who you are not!!!!!

She has returned with her partner few weeks ago from Spain where they won the Int Ballroom and made the final in Latin in Platja Daro. She is competing this weekend in the Irish Open where she will face more international couples. They are been considered by their teachers one of the best Junior couple in England but yet can't make finals in EADA comps!

I let you wonder why!!

 The clear implication is that in England the couple are unfairly marked (the reason we have to wonder why but something is wrong) and English Adjudicators are incompetent and do not mark what they see on the day.  This is unfair.  The basis for the claim? The results in Spain.  Reality is in Spain there were 5 competitors in standard. 4 from Spain not one in the top 6 Spanish couples and not one having ever competed outside Spain. In the Latin 15 couples not one from the top 6 in either Spain or Portugal.  I  am sorry but this does not add up and the claim was unfair to those English couples who do make EADA finals.  Parents are  notoriously biased and there is nothing basically wrong with that but on an international forum more care is required.

Just to conclude I expressed no opinion on what path the couple should take. My observation is if a couple choose to dance lesser quality couples do not use that as the basis to complain that against higher quality couples you should be marked better.  All in all I feel very sorry for the young couple who I  believe have been badly served by a biased parent choosing to cry "foul"
marvin
Joined on 19 ago 2008
Total posts: 33

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

giovedì 2 luglio 2009 20.42

Have arrived to this interesting topic rather late...after reading through I get the impression this topic questions  general  bias and bull#@!  , as you call it,  rather than a concern with specific and individual examples.   In my opinion this is  proper, more diplomatic and more polite than naming specific people who may  fit the innuendo.

For that reason alone, and also ( and undeniably ) as a biased parent of a child who dances,  may I suggest that you consider the 'accuracy' of the example provided by a proud parent(s) not as significant to this topic, (we all know where biases come from ),  the question in front of us is :  Is there need for the bull#@! in dancesport  ,  the bull#@! which  comes to us in different  disguises- explained at the top of  the thread.

I accept Spectator100's viewpoint,  but only as one possible explanation of a specific report of suggested injustice. Mentioning, dissecting, reviewing, judging  and again mentioning  names of specific non-adult dancers, no matter how great they  may be,  is simply inappropriate as the  negativity could cause  harm.  These wonderful dancers should be left alone, as they certainly do not seek this  publicity...at least  my son would very much object to my ( his dad's)  claiming how great he is etc. ( middling )

Lets stick with generalities, it is somehow kinder, and by dealing with generalities we may even find a partial answer. 

Lets consider the winning couples good dancers who happened to be more favoured by the presiding judges and I think everyone will be happier. 

 
clarkson2stuart
Joined on 24 mag 2009
Total posts: 9

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

venerdì 3 luglio 2009 21.51

spectator100

clarkson2stuart I m a little puzzled  by your words. On the one hand you say it is about expressing opinions and on the other you criticise me for producing fact.  Surely if a parent chooses to come to an international and widely read public forum they invite their words to be studied?  I absolutely agree it is important to be fair. Fair to all the other EADA competitors and the Adjudicators.

Spectator100, my words are actually quite clear. It's an open discussion where people can express their opinions. However, I am with Marvin on this one. Naming names and using real competitors - especially U16 competitors as examples is really unfair and especially when your comments start to get hurtful. That is not right in any sense of discussion never mind an open forum for anyone to view.

I think taking Pink Unicorn,[moderated by Admin at the request of involved parties] out of the conversation would be the right thing to do and focus on the context of this first post rather than the last couple of postings.

I can see each point of the argument here and im sure Pink Unicorn can too.

 

 
onyourtoes
Joined on 12 feb 2007
Total posts: 656

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

lunedì 20 luglio 2009 9.22

bull #@!  Topic surely is !!

Anyone watching the Diving at the World Championships in Rome?  Judging? Just a few examples.

One dive/diver being marked 6 by one whilst  8 and 8.5 were  the norm.  

Same  dive different diver and whilst other mark 7 or 7.5 our "sixer judge" gives 8.5. !!

2..5 difference at 0.5 stages is like 6 placements!

Later 9.5 near perfection from one judge and others see it no better than an 8:

Lets face it dancing is no different to any other sport where human beings are involved in the judging process.

End the bull #@!   Just make sure your judges have integrity and the knowledge, ability and experience and have not spent a few hours at some "congress".

 

clarkson2stuart just a quick question -  are you aware that you were the first person to name the 2 young dancers and have done the very thing for which you criticise spectator100? 
goldfinger
Joined on 13 mar 2009
Total posts: 16

Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???

mercoledì 5 agosto 2009 23.22

After   reading this  interesting article I had a change of heart a bit , at least regarding the competitive dancing at lower levels:

Why Compete in Dance Sport?
By Tim van Gelder.

No doubt there are lots of "bad" reasons that people compete. Here, however, are two that I think are good ones:

1. It provides opportunities to dance in full regalia with a skilled partner with whom you are in tune, with good music on a spacious floor on which there are only other couples who know how to dance well to that music. The occasions for doing this outside competition are almost non-existent. When ballroom dancing of this kind goes well, it is the zenith of the ballroom experience. To quote the beer commercial: "It doesn't get any better than this." Your average social ballroom dance is a pretty poor substitute.

2. It is the best way to find out how good you are. I can't trust my own judgement. Others, however, mostly will not or cannot tell you honestly and accurately. Competing cuts through the bullshit. In my experience, as soon you have progressed beyond the stage of outright beginner, people are constantly telling you how good you are. Mostly, this is just meaningless. Out of tact, politeness or whatever people will very rarely tell you that your dancing totally sucks even when it does. Your friends will flatter you to make you feel good. Your instructors will say "that's good" to encourage you and build your confidence.

People who know nothing about dancing will gush about how well you dance. Nobody will say "I'd be really embarrassed if I danced like you" or "that's really mediocre dancing". Further, even if people wanted to let us know exactly how well or badly we were dancing, they wouldn't have the vocabulary. Mostly, all they can say is things like "that's not bad". But when you compete, you get a much more honest and specific idea. You find out that you're good enough to make a semi-final at C grade (or whatever). Yeah, OK, its generally not completely objective and accurate. But so what? Its still the best standard going. It saves me from laboring under illusions.

 

 
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