We would like to start the new series of interviews with big companies which influence the dance market and work with dancers. So let me welcome Peter Dobner, founder and chairman of Chrisanne, the company which provides fashion for dancers around the world. We met with Peter at the German Open 2014 in Stuttgart.
What excites us is breaking new ground in a good way, when you open doors that no one has opened before, when you come up with an idea nobody came up with before
Peter, when did it all start for you?
[Peter]: When Chrisanne started we were dancers and everyone we knew were dancers and there was no real supply source for everything we take for granted today. There was no single place to go to for fabrics, and other things you needed for a dress. Suppliers like that did not exist to provide for dancers fashion. So the motivation to start Chrisanne was demand driven. It was something we wanted and something our friends wanted.
When was it?
[Peter]: In 1986. Initially there were four of us. The vision was to make specialised products available for dancers that would be particularly useful for performing and would combine the comfort of sportswear and the elegance of eveningwear. That was the original idea. We quickly found that there were things you couldn’t get in normal shops that dancers wanted.
What was the first product you noticed was missing from the shops?
[Peter]: At the time, the very first product – it sounds funny now – was Sequin fabric. It became very popular but it was only available in Asia. We found a source in Europe and quickly made it available not just in popular colours like black and silver but in many other colours that were more interesting for dancers. That was the first unique product that Chrisanne brought out.
How often would you say the dance fashion changes?
[Peter]: You have big cycles and small cycles. The first big change was from the tutu skirts to the long flowing skirts. In Ballroom there was a whole period when the dress had feather boas. And then that stopped again for many years. Then you have short cycles when a particular colour or style gets very popular. In Latin a particular cut gets very popular which can last for a year or a season and it goes again.
Do they come back?
[Peter]: Generally yes, but with a twist. Feathers, as an example, were totally in to the point when everybody was wearing them and then they were completely out when nobody wore them. Now they are a possibility. Generally, there is a bit more variation these days, less of a single trend. There is more possibility for people to have their own ideas, to be more individual but still be in fashion.
Of course in the last 30, 40 years the dance style changed, Latin in particular is completely different.
[Peter]: Well, even Ballroom has changed. The demands in terms of physical ability and technique havw risen dramatically. There are a lot of very competent dancers out there these days. I think what would benefit the danceworld as a whole in both Ballroom and Latin, would be to bring some personalities back. I think we have a lot of high capability, both technical and physical, a lot of people able to do things which they were not able to do 20 years ago. But what would benefit dancesport greatly is allowing and supporting and marking people who bring something unique in terms of personality and performance, who stand out and are attractive to the crowd.
In an artistic sense?
[Peter]: I think it is quality which is very difficult to define but ultimately touches the audience. Something which is brought across which goes deeper than just the physical movement. Something which can touch the heart and soul. When that is combined with a high degree of physical and artistic ability then something unique can happen on the dance floor and the audience recognises that. A good audience will always be able to see that and feel that. And this is where the new boundaries will be set.
Do you think that judges don’t always see that?
[Peter]: I think this is where it gets a bit tricky because what it is being judged has become a little too regulated and therefore you get too much of the same. If this is encouraged you get a high degree of capability but everyone is in the same box. And that’s fine but after some time it becomes stagnant. And to really attract new people and new audiences we also have to allow and support people who are daring and couples who occasionally take a risk. If taking a risk always gets you marked down then couples stop taking a risk.
Do you remember any couple who took a risk and it was a success for them?
[Peter]: Yes, in the past there were many of those. I remember John Wood and Anne Lewis, now Anne Gleave, they did a Quickstep show which was really breaking the boundaries and then incorporated many of these ideas into their competitive Quickstep. The audience was delighted. It broke new boundaries in terms of where the Ballroom was going at the time. There are many examples like that in the past. Andrew Sinkinson and Lorraine Barry did it through subtlety and sophistication that was superior to other couples. Marcus and Karen Hilton were unique in their own style and parallel to John and Anne, so different but yet they both did something which brought out their own personalities. There was something there which took it beyond the technical ability and added an element which was exciting and inspiring.
A few years ago, at the Team Match during Blackpool, the British team brought the old masters and they were stunning. There was something there which was wonderful but difficult to define.
[Peter]: Yes, it is difficult to define and I appreciate it is difficult to mark but I think that for the ongoing development of dance and for the future it is something which needs to be explored and supported. Otherwise we are at risk of making it into something which is too regulated and ultimately too narrow for the real talent to give it full attention.
Do you think that the new judging system introduced by WDSF will improve and help fairness in dancing or not?
[Peter]: I am not sure whether I am able to formulate an opinion yet, it has not been there long enough. It is an interesting experiment. I think the issue you have with a very high level of dancers is that you need very knowledgeable people to be able to tell a difference between them.
You are right, for most people it is impossible to tell the difference between the top 24 couples.
[Peter]: People may be able to point out the couple that they like or that excites them. But it may not be the couple which gets to the final. Ideally the couple who wins should be a favourite with the audience and the judges at the same time. There has to be a level of competence and you cannot be marked to win unless there is a high level of competence. But unless we also take the component of what people find attractive, interesting and inspiring than you will end up with a lot of couples on the same level with very little to distinguish them.
It is like talking about art in general.... Should the art be something the public likes or something the critics like?
[Peter]: In a competition situation it can be only judged by the experts but I think that the experts should have high degree of consideration of what will ultimately appeal to the audience. If we don’t put couples on the floor who can ultimately dance in a way that touches people, talk to people, than it will always be a very narrow niche and be at risk of potentially shrinking away. We need to attract people in, people who want to do it and people who want to watch it. Otherwise it is not going to get anywhere.
I must say I always admired Ferenc Polai for running one single event in Innsbruck which, year by year, attracted and was able to entertain people from all over the town, not just families and friends of dancers.
[Peter]: I agree that dance ultimately needs to be something which is able to talk to a wider audience. You need to have some expertise involved so that the results the couples get in the competition have foundation. My argument is that those foundations have to be in place but they have to be expanded to include an element which speaks to more people than just experts and which reaches people and might get them inspired to maybe start themselves or regularly come and watch.
Latin is often seen as more spectacular and interesting that Ballroom by many non-dancers. Do you think Ballroom should be allowed to change, perhaps towards the American styles?
[Peter]: I think it would be worth to have a discussion about it. I come from traditional Ballroom myself and I would hate to see that disappear and I think it has its place. But I do think that there should be an ongoing discussion about how it can stay young and interesting.
Do you think introducing the number of new steps in Viennese Waltz was a good decision? Is it good because it refreshes it or should it be more about perfecting what was already there?
[Peter]: I don’t want to make it into a black and white judgement. What I would say is that an ongoing experimentation is a healthy thing. With time, you have to look at each aspect and decide whether it has merit or not. If you make it completely unregulated then in 10 years’ time we will have something which is completely different. But at the same time if it is too regulated then in 10 years’ time we will have something which is exactly the same and only a few people are doing it.
Do you think there is enough freedom in costumes and dresses the couples wear on the floor?
[Peter]: I think the freedom is there. People can pretty much wear what they want. Of course, someone wearing an outfit from 30 years ago would look odd but this is something which is impossible to regulate. You cannot regulate fashion. Fashion emerges and develops and you have to let it run its course.
I remember the discussion when the short skirts changed to long skirts that if you cannot see the footwork you won’t be able judge properly.
[Peter]: Yes, in the eighties when the Ballroom dresses changed. But it was clearly demonstrated that this opinion was wrong, right? Because for the last 20 years it has been like this. The same concern was raised when the men in Latin changed from catsuits to the loose outfits that are being worn today. There was the same argument that you cannot tell whether the man has a straight leg or not. Well, I don’t think that should even be a judging criteria whether it is exactly straight or not. Either it is an attractive movement or isn’t.
So the look as well as technique defines a dancer?
[Peter]: I think it is technique and it will show in the overall body movement. If you have poor technique it will show overall not just because your knee is not exactly straight. You will see it because the whole look is not aesthetic. The technique for technique alone makes no sense to me. Technique should support your ability to be able to express what you want to express.
So the technique is just a tool.
[Peter]: Absolutely. You can judge the ability to use that tool. If you have poor technique it will show in many different places. If either one or both partners in a couple cannot hold the body line, or control their body movement the end result is visibly not right. The end result doesn’t come through. The teacher can trace it back and find out where the problem originates and how to fix it. So the couple may need to learn better technique to achieve the overall look. But when you look at the couple you can see a mile off if the couple has or hasn’t got the competency without needing to see if their knee is straight or not.
OK, how much of the faults can be expertly covered by a skilful choice of costumes?
[Peter]: Some couples who read this interview will be upset with me (laughing). I think clothes are like the wrapping. I think good clothing can enhance the performance but cannot make your performance. If your dancing is not up to scratch, even when you wear a champions dress, you are not going to win. But if you are a champion and you wear a poor dress it can diminish your performance.
In the past when girls danced Ballroom wearing tutu style dresses it was impossible to dance in a proper hold
[Peter]: At the time the technique was different. There was nothing like the poise that is there today. The body lines were completely different so I don’t even think it is comparable. Nowadays both the man and the lady need to work much harder. It has become a more demanding sport.
Why is dancewear so expensive?
[Peter]: I am not sure it is that expensive. All I can say is that when we first moved to the UK, which was in the mid-eighties, a Ballroom dress was the same price as it is today. So it has become much cheaper comparatively because the whole supply chain has developed to a totally different level of sophistication. Is it cheap? Not really, I guess, because they are specialised clothes that are always made individually by hand, individually for the person. But in relative terms even if you look at normal fashion, if you had something made to measure, made to order, with very specific standards in terms of components used, you would actually pay a lot more than you pay for a dance dress these days. So is it cheap...? No, but I have a friend who is an amateur cycle racer and he needs to spend 5,000 pounds on his bicycle, so it is always a question of value for money. I think in terms of what actually goes into a dance dress they are probably being made relatively effectively these days.
Obviously your brand is respected by dancers and means the best components are being used
[Peter]: Yes, I hope so
So how long it takes to design and develop a dress, how complicated is it, how many people does it involve?
[Peter]: It would involve at least half a dozen people from start to finish. The main parts of the process are design, agreeing the design with customer, then putting the design into a specification to make, getting the components together and then getting the dress actually made up and decorated. All can be personalised, and involves working with the customer on a one to one basis. Of course, if we are making dresses to stock it doesn’t include the customer, but you still need to do all these steps (laughing). You have to come up with the ideas anyway.
So you have a bunch of people who are dedicated to coming up with the designs?
[Peter]: Yes. They have to move a lot ... (laughing) ... between materials, half-finished ideas, fully finished ideas, talk to colleagues, watch events....
So how does the new design get developed, do they come to you with drawings and you tell them yes or no?
[Peter]: No, they definitely don’t come to me because that would be fairly disastrous for the designs and for the business (laughing). We have a team of very competent designers and they work as a team. They usually do them in the form of collections so, over a number of dresses, there will be an umbrella idea which expresses something. And then within it you have some individual idea for each dress.
So the design team makes an ultimate decision of what goes into production?
[Peter]: Correct. Te production process involves a lot of skill and knowledge. You need to know how to work with the material, particularly stretch fabrics. It is not something which everybody learns.
How long does it take a new person to learn all the skills required?
[Peter]: If they have previous training I would say it takes three to six months to become competent. It is quite a long time. It is a slow process accompanied by a lot of learning.
We are talking about dresses, but what about the men’s costumes?
[Peter]: At Chrisanne we don’t do that really.
Discrimination? (laughing)
[Peter]: We have a limited menswear range. It is not discrimination but it is the historic development of our company. We’ve always focused on the women’s field. Over the last 25 years we have developed a particular expertise in women’s clothing. With men we have somehow never done that.
Who did your clothes when you were dancing?
[Peter]: I had some very good tailors. It is a very specific skill set and I have the highest respect for people who make quality tail suits. It is also a very individual and skilled process. It has undergone changes in the past years in many ways. They have a whole different set of challenges. In terms how people are trained, men’s tailoring is a different skill. And it is not a skill set we have developed in our company.
Was it a decision made at the beginning?
[Peter]: Somehow for all these years we never quite got there (laughing).
So there are areas you could potentially conquer?
[Peter]: We could, but I think if the area is well covered, like dance shoes are well covered by companies who have decades of expertise in that respect, it would be arrogant and foolish to try to start doing what they are doing and try to develop that experience.
Or brave perhaps?
[Peter]: Brave or stupid, sometimes there is a fine line between these two (laughing).
Can you imagine what will the fashion be next year?
[Peter]: I don’t think I am the right person to answer that question. Within Chrisanne we’ve always stood for what we do as a company but I personally have never really stood for the fashion and style aspect.
So you are more a manager than an artistic soul?
[Peter]: What I hoped and tried to stand for all the time is to make sure that what we do, we do very, very well. So, I would say that's what remains from my competitive days is that when we do something we want to do it better than anyone else. That’s where my drive comes from.
Have you ever been tempted to go to the mass market?
[Peter]: No, not so far.
How do you react to see copies of your own designs soon after they have been first presented?
[Peter]: It is a fact of life. You can either see it as a complement that your designs get copied or get very irritated about it. So we choose to see it as a complement and ongoing encouragement to keep moving faster than the rest.
Is it reasonable to say it is not advisable to promote the latest designs on the website because they get copied right away?
[Peter]: The world has moved beyond that. If you don’t put it on your website the picture will be on the promotional leaflet of the next event or on Facebook because somebody has posted it. So I think an attempt to try to curtail it that way is doomed to fail anyway. A big part of our business is also to supply fabrics and components which make up the dresses so our hope is that if somebody decides to copy the design they will at least buy the fabric from us.
Good point (laughing)
[Peter]: I think it is impossible to avoid being copied.
Part of life nowadays with everything, pictures, music, videos...
[Peter]: Yes. And I think the job is to keep moving. So by the time somebody copies you, you are already working on the next idea.
Is there any particular dress Chrisanne is particularly proud of?
[Peter]: Over the years there were many success stories. We are always excited when we feel we are breaking new ground. There was a dress many years ago worn by Hazel Newberry in the Blackpool final. Hazel became a winner that time, and it was the first time when a dark colour dress was worn in the finals. The unwritten rule up to then was that in a Blackpool final you would wear white or otherwise a very light colour and she wore navy blue.
It sound strange now, doesn’t it
[Peter]: Yes, it does now. But at the time it was really out of the box and out of the comfort zone for a lot of people. Both Christina, my wife, who was head designer at the time and Hazel stood their ground because they both felt it was a great idea and it was a roaring success. It looked fantastic and it broke new ground. I think what excites us is breaking new ground in a good way, when you open doors that no one has opened before, when you come up with an idea that nobody has come up with before.
Another thing which sounds strange today is that we were the first dress company to start sponsoring. We started the sponsorship idea with three couples. And today, of course, it is everywhere. Of course these ideas get copied but it is the reshaping which is exciting. When Chrisanne first started there was no dance industry. In the last 25 years everything just changed. Now every country where dancing is active has some decent supply chain when you can get everything that you need in a very simple manner, at good quality, and relatively decent prices.
It is a long way away from when we started when you had to trawl through a dozen different shops where you may or may not find what you need. Nothing was colour coordinated. One day you may get it, next week it may not be available. And a huge amount of time was spent by dancers as well as by designers just to try to get the bits that you needed to make a dress. Never mind to come up with something new. So things have changed a lot!
Was it easier for you, as a company, say 20 years ago when there were only few other companies in the business? Of course, competition is good for the customers but does it make your life harder or simply different?
[Peter]: When we first started there was an empty niche and therefore it was like stepping into a vacuum which was waiting for somebody to take it on. That was the easy part. But within few years things moved on, and we were also very naïve and made a lot of mistakes. So is it easier now or was it then? It is certainly different (laughing). I think if it wasn’t that way it wouldn’t bring out the best in you. It keeps you on your toes and therefore it is also a good thing.
Yes, we have to be kept on our toes otherwise we will stagnate
[Peter]: And it would get a little boring to be honest. Is it a challenge sometimes? Of course, it is. But is it exciting and keeps you moving? Yes, it does and it is great and it keeps you young.
It was great talking to you, thank you very much for your time.
All the photos taken by Vladimir Kuptiyanov from Art & Dance Event Photos. Copyright by Art & Dance Event Photos
